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STRETCH
01-29-2009, 11:16 PM
I change on average 5 sets of tires a year and I decided I need a quality static wheel ballancer. I've given up on finding a resonably priced wheel ballancer after weeks of searching. So I looked into buying the parts to build a simple but acurate wheel ballancer using high quality beaings and cones to fit different size axles. something like the picture bellow.
this ballancer listed on line for $110
If I buy just enough parts to build just 1 ballancer for my self it will cost me about $60. but if I can find at least 5 other people to go in with me they should only cost around $30 each to build.
I've got two interested parties so far, so I need at least 3 more to make this work. I thought about just building 1/2 a dozen and selling them, but I'm realy not interested. So if any one wants there own ballancer for about the cost of ballancing a set of tires shoot me a PM and we'll hammer out the details.

knybanjo
01-30-2009, 12:00 AM
You really don't have to buy anything.....except balancing weights.

Just use the bike's own axle.

I've been doing that for years.

Wolfman
01-30-2009, 12:05 AM
I use 2 jack stands, with a steel bar and the wheels bearings. Cost ZERO as I already had all the stuff. I change about 4-5 sets a year as well. Never had any issues with balance using this method.

Desmo Demon
01-30-2009, 05:23 AM
Just use the bike's own axle.

I've been doing that for years.

Sometimes this works and other times it doesn't. Of the 12+ sets of rims that I have been working with over the last couple of years, sometimes there is too much resistance in the bearings to get the wheel to move. Just this last weekend, I was trying to check the rear wheel balance on CRS's Suzuki TL using this method, and the wheel would not move, no matter how I positioned it. With some wheels, though, this method seems to work fine.

Currently, I don't mess with balancing on Vicki's R1 because I'm using DynaBeads in her two sets of wheels for that bike. I previously wrote about a vibration/headshake issue I fought with two rims, three tires, and several times static balancing the wheel that never cured it, but.....two rim/rotor assemblies and two tires later, the DynaBeads still have the bike running smooth as glass. I have two more sets of DynaBeads that I will probably drop into the tires of my 748 (these are the two bikes that often see 100+ mph runs......at least a few times a year they will hit an indicated 150+ mph).

With the other bikes, I've just about gotten to the point where I don't even attempt to balance the wheels. I just find the heaviest spot on the rim and align the dots on the tire to this spot (the valve stem is NOT always the heaviest spot on a rim). My theory on not balancing the wheels is that, since we only get 2000-3000 miles to a tire, on average, a single day of 300-400 miles or a 700-1000 mile weekend results in the wheel being out of balance due to wear. I know this to be fact because I've seen it with the balancing and rebalancing I've done throughout the life of a couple of tires on the R1, so........theoretically, I need to rebalance my tires after every ride (with the DynaBeads, the wheels tay balanced throughout the life of the tire).

With the low miles that we get on tires, I cannot state whether a balanced tire lasts longer or not. I've had the same brand and model tire mounted to the same bike, one balanced and one not, and seen either one of them outlast the other. The easiest way to extend a tire's life for us is to ride on a cold day or in the rain. At 2000-3000 miles for tire life, a 300-mile day of riding in the rain can extend the "life" of the tire by 10% or more......

Now, if I rode the Harley more, I may be able to see the benefits of tire balancing when it comes to tread life, but......at 20,000 to 25,000 miles per set of tires, it will take me far too long to run experiments on balancing vs non-balancing.


BTW - In 2006, Vicki and I went through 14 tires, 2007 we went through 18 tires, and I never counted them for 2008, but I'm sure it was 15+.....not to mention the tires I've changed and patched on a few our of friend's bikes.

PETE913
01-30-2009, 09:47 AM
you guys are aware that Cyclegear has been balancing wheels/tires for free for about 8 months now right? You don't have to buy the tires there either. Just might save some time and effort that's all.

Wanderer13
01-30-2009, 09:52 AM
Terry, have you noticed a difference in tire life with the DynaBeads? I have not run the same set of tires in the same conditions to make an accurate assessment.

Desmo Demon
01-30-2009, 09:58 AM
you guys are aware that Cyclegear has been balancing wheels/tires for free for about 8 months now right? You don't have to buy the tires there either. Just might save some time and effort that's all.

That requires having to take them back off the bike, drive down there, and then hope that an employee is working who knows who to balance a wheel. ;) ....just the round-trip drive is over an hour for me.

Terry, have you noticed a difference in tire life with the DynaBeads? I have not run the same set of tires in the same conditions to make an accurate assessment.

No....I don't remember the exact mileage, but it wasn't long or short enough to have made a difference that would stand out. Vicki's been burning through some tires pretty fast, lately. The last set on her R1, front and rear, where bald in 1950 miles.

knybanjo
01-30-2009, 11:23 AM
Currently, I don't mess with balancing on Vicki's R1 because I'm using DynaBeads in her two sets of wheels for that bike.

I've also heard other good reports on the beads...but have never tried them.

Do you save them for re-use?

sometimes there is too much resistance in the bearings to get the wheel to move
Seems to me if a bearing won't spin freely it would be in need of replacement.

Desmo Demon
01-30-2009, 12:08 PM
Do you save them for re-use?

Yes....I haven't had to retrieve them from a wheel, yet, though. I hear that it is easy to recover them....and I've heard it's a PITA.


Seems to me if a bearing won't spin freely it would be in need of replacement.
This is not always the case. A bearing can have enough force, pressure and resistance on it to where it will not spin as freely as it would if these influences were removed, but the bearing can still be perfectly fine. It's like packing a bearing with a thick bearing grease. It will be more resistant to rotatation than if a much lighter grease, or no grease, was used. If you've ever packed or repacked a bearing, the bearing will spin like an SOB without grease in it, but once you pack it full of grease, it probably wouldn't make a single revolution with the same force applied to it.

Checking the bearing with your fingers for flat spots, grittiness, or other things that would show that a bearing is bad is not difficult, but, inside the wheel assembly, a person needs to make sure that other things, such as a binding of the wheel spacer, is not giving you false results. I have seen where a spacer inside the wheel will shift at an angle when trying to check the bearings. When this happens, the spacer will create lateral forces on the inner races causing a side loading of the bearing. As you try to rotate one bearing, you are also rotating the spacer and the other bearing, but also getting all sorts of resistance (and often grittiness) from things rubbing. When torqued on the bike, the alignment is as it should be, though, there is no additional binding or resistance to rotation because the horizontal loading has been removed.....This is why some manuals specify a certain amount of side play between the spacer and the bearings when replacing bearings in the wheel hub. There is a risk of an out-of-spec bearing inner race or spacer causing a side load on the bearing, which will create premature wear.

Interestingly, most people are familiar with a wheel spacer being just a piece of pipe. Traditional wheel spacers look like this one out of my '87 Ducati Paso 750 and are easy to work with....

http://www.desmodemon.com/wheel_bearings.jpg


The wheel spacer on my newer Ducatis are dramatically different. They have fins on them that reduce the amount of movement.....

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d32/Kramer_Krazy/ducati_wheel_spacer.jpg

Wanderer13
01-30-2009, 03:00 PM
I've also heard other good reports on the beads...but have never tried them.

Do you save them for re-use?

I reuse mine. I am careful when removing the tire from the rim, making sure the beads stay in the tire. Once the tire is off the rim, I just use a regular dinner spoon and scoop them out and put them in a small bowl. Once I mount the first side of the new tire, I pour the beads in and then continue with the second side. Pretty straight forward.

STRETCH
01-30-2009, 05:56 PM
how would you know if the dyna beeds are working or not.
I read a review a while back in MCN where they put a tire on a dynamic balancer with and without the dyna beeds and both times it called for the same amount of weight in the exact same place.
It makes sence to me that they will spread out evenly over the inside of the tire at speed.
I'll stick with the traditional static wheel ballance.

a perfectly ballanced tire should wear evenly and so should never require reballancing.
however a wheel just a little out of ballance will were unevenly and the ballance will get worse as the tire wears.

STRETCH
01-30-2009, 05:56 PM
You really don't have to buy anything.....except balancing weights.

Just use the bike's own axle.

I've been doing that for years.
worked on my suzuki but not my kawasaki or my yamaha.

STRETCH
01-30-2009, 05:58 PM
you guys are aware that Cyclegear has been balancing wheels/tires for free for about 8 months now right? You don't have to buy the tires there either. Just might save some time and effort that's all.
I've had tires done there and put them on a staic ballancer before mounting them and they've always been at least 1/4oz out

WeKneeDragger
01-30-2009, 08:48 PM
I had a good experience having rubbers :ohyea: put on my sportbike last summer.
I was watching the guy mount my front tire. He was paying attention to the correct rotation marks on the old tire and the new tire. Positioned the new tire so it would be correct when he picked it up. He mounted the tire then went to spin her up.
I noticed how much weight he had to put on the tire and then I saw him shake his head. So I walked over to him and asked what was wrong? He said I put the damn tire on wrong.
I told him don't sweat it, things happen. He started pulling off the stick weights and then I asked him to try something for me.
I told him to mark the spot on the rim where he had to put the weights. Then I told him to put the HEAVY spot (180 degrees from the dot on the tire) of the tire where the marked area was on the rim.
He asked why and I told him that maybe he wouldn't have to use so much weight. He said sure.
He remounted the tire the way I asked, spun her up and guess what? The same amount of weights in the same exact spot. On top of that the new stick'em weights were in the same spot as where the factory weights were (rim edge clamp style).
What does this say.
To me it says the tire was perfectly balanced and the only thing that wasn't balanced was the rim.
Dynabeads
www.gl1800riders.com most luv them. I am trying the front tire on the wing and so fur she b doin fine:ok: gettin to the :dramaqueen on the wing!
The Greenville Suz dealership don't balance any of their tires. I'm not so sure I believe in that. Their story was good quality tires don't need it.

STRETCH
01-30-2009, 11:22 PM
I had a good experience having rubbers :ohyea: put on my sportbike last summer.
I was watching the guy mount my front tire. He was paying attention to the correct rotation marks on the old tire and the new tire. Positioned the new tire so it would be correct when he picked it up. He mounted the tire then went to spin her up.
I noticed how much weight he had to put on the tire and then I saw him shake his head. So I walked over to him and asked what was wrong? He said I put the damn tire on wrong.
I told him don't sweat it, things happen. He started pulling off the stick weights and then I asked him to try something for me.
I told him to mark the spot on the rim where he had to put the weights. Then I told him to put the HEAVY spot (180 degrees from the dot on the tire) of the tire where the marked area was on the rim.
He asked why and I told him that maybe he wouldn't have to use so much weight. He said sure.
He remounted the tire the way I asked, spun her up and guess what? The same amount of weights in the same exact spot. On top of that the new stick'em weights were in the same spot as where the factory weights were (rim edge clamp style).
What does this say.
To me it says the tire was perfectly balanced and the only thing that wasn't balanced was the rim.
Dynabeads
www.gl1800riders.com most luv them. I am trying the front tire on the wing and so fur she b doin fine:ok: gettin to the :dramaqueen on the wing!
The Greenville Suz dealership don't balance any of their tires. I'm not so sure I believe in that. Their story was good quality tires don't need it.
sounds like your rim may have been a little bent.
If the tire was perfectly ballanced I'd bet it was a michelin.
still the entire assembly needs to be ballanced to maximise tire wear.

WeKneeDragger
02-01-2009, 06:09 PM
sounds like your rim may have been a little bent.
If the tire was perfectly ballanced I'd bet it was a michelin.
still the entire assembly needs to be ballanced to maximise tire wear.

It was a Conti Sport Attack
My friend why do you say "little bent"? I took it the weight was just to get the wheel balanced

Desmo Demon
02-01-2009, 07:49 PM
My friend why do you say "little bent"?

Every cast wheel that has ever come from the factory is a "little bent". They pop them out of the mold, do some machining, and then let them go. They never put them on any machine to straighten them to make them true and perfectly round. There is a guy who I had straighten a front rim for my Paso a couple of years ago. He spent something like $15,000 on his piece of equipment and said he can make a brand new wheel closer to perfect roundness than they come over the counter (he can even straighten the rotors to run true with the wheel). Another interesting thing is that, you ever notice that cast wheels come with odd-numbered spokes? It all has to do with the casting process and the cooling. If the number of spokes are even-numbered, the rim does some funky bending and distorting while it cools....

Now, for a perfectly balanced wheel having the tire wear perfectly even would be "perfect"......if the wheel was perfectly round, the axle was perfectly in the center of the casting, the tire was perfectly round, the tire's rubber density was perfectly consistant, each time the bike accelerated or was under braking the same amount of force was perfectly applied throughout a perfect revolution and never a partial revolution......

;)

STRETCH
02-03-2009, 04:38 PM
It was a Conti Sport Attack
My friend why do you say "little bent"? I took it the weight was just to get the wheel balanced
my experience with ballancing tires has found that Michelins are the most evenly balanced tires from the factory and often require 1/4oz or less to ballance. I'm a little suprised the Conti was a well ballanced tire as I've had to use as much as 2oz to ballance a rear tire.

my coment about the wheel probably being a little bent was becouse a strait wheel usualy dosen't require a lot of weight to ballance without a tire on it and from your post it sounded like you said the wheel, not the tire was significantly out of ballance.

STRETCH
02-03-2009, 04:43 PM
Now, for a perfectly balanced wheel having the tire wear perfectly even would be "perfect"......if the wheel was perfectly round, the axle was perfectly in the center of the casting, the tire was perfectly round, the tire's rubber density was perfectly consistant, each time the bike accelerated or was under braking the same amount of force was perfectly applied throughout a perfect revolution and never a partial revolution......

;)[/QUOTE]

with tires I was able to ballance to near perfect I have consistantly gotten very even tire wear and as a result longer tire life (no waisted tread). I must be alot cheaper then the rest of you.

STRETCH
02-03-2009, 05:29 PM
I change on average 5 sets of tires a year and I decided I need a quality static wheel ballancer. I've given up on finding a resonably priced wheel ballancer after weeks of searching. So I looked into buying the parts to build a simple but acurate wheel ballancer using high quality beaings and cones to fit different size axles. something like the picture bellow.
this ballancer listed on line for $110
If I buy just enough parts to build just 1 ballancer for my self it will cost me about $60. but if I can find at least 5 other people to go in with me they should only cost around $30 each to build.
I've got two interested parties so far, so I need at least 3 more to make this work. I thought about just building 1/2 a dozen and selling them, but I'm realy not interested. So if any one wants there own ballancer for about the cost of ballancing a set of tires shoot me a PM and we'll hammer out the details.
I ordered cones from Nomar(R) bought and cut cold rolled steel rod and ordered bearings enough to build 6 ballancers.
3 are sold already, and I'm keeping 1 so there are 2 still available for $47 each.
That is less then the cost to build if you make just one.

Desmo Demon
02-04-2009, 06:18 AM
with tires I was able to ballance to near perfect I have consistantly gotten very even tire wear and as a result longer tire life (no waisted tread). I must be alot cheaper then the rest of you.

Yeah, Vicki absolutely hates it when she wastes tread, too. She felt sick to her stomach with the amount of tread left on this tire....

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d32/Kramer_Krazy/vicki_tire-1.jpg

BTW, I think this tire only had about 2200 miles on it....it's off of her GSXR.


I went back two nights ago and checked our tire usage for 2008......18 tires.....along with the 18 tires in 2007 and the 14 in 2006, I've decided I need to buy stock in a tire manufacturer. Interestingly, we've already changed two fronts and a rear tire this year, and I'll need another rear tire on the ST2 after another day or two of riding. ;)

WeKneeDragger
02-04-2009, 04:54 PM
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d32/Kramer_Krazy/vicki_tire-1.jpg ;)

It must be nice to be able to replace a perfectly good tire that has another 1500 miles left on it.:tease:

4650 on the Cont. Sport Attacks and the rear is perfectly wore from edge to edge with (3) .25oz weights. The front (4)(.25oz weights) is not as good on wear but not bad. More wear on the sides. They could go to 5000 miles b4 ALL the tread is gone.

Chilli99katana
02-04-2009, 10:29 PM
Wow, I didn't realize I could (potentially) go through THAT many tires, and I only have the 1 bike! How often do you and your wife ride to go through that many tires? I just started riding, if I plan on riding as much as I want to I might want to invest in this wheel balancer myself. (Now I just need to learn how to balance tires myself... Now which way does this tire go on again?)

STRETCH
02-05-2009, 12:09 AM
they,ve got these handy little arows to tell you wich way the tire goes.
I've gotten anywere from 1500-7000 miles out of a tire depending on a lot of things but I average 4000 to a tire. Usualy they last a little longer in the winter but my last set went bald at 2,900. I'm gona try and squeeze another couple hundred miles out of it.
anybody got a cheap 120-70

Desmo Demon
02-05-2009, 04:36 AM
How often do you and your wife ride to go through that many tires?

Usually two weekends a month and during the summer we try to pull 300-400 mile days. We've ridden about 2000 miles (4000 combined) since Christmas. With my commuting, I've averaged around 20k a year for the last 4-5 years. In 2007, we had a combined mileage of 42k miles. The bikes usually stay in the mountains 95%+ of the time. We'd get a few more miles per tire if we switch to sport-touring tires, again, but the $150-$180 per SET deals that we've been getting from Cycle Gear the last few years has had us stocking up on Diablos and the D208 tires when they were on sale. It's difficult to turn down tires where it's like buying a rear and getting the front for free (or less than $25).


I average 4000 to a tire. Usually they last a little longer in the winter but my last set went bald at 2,900. anybody got a cheap 120-70

We used to average about 2500 to a rear and 3500 to a front, but now they are a solid 500-750 less than that. The absolute most we've seen in the last five years has been a little over 5000 miles on a front tire, but that included a 1600 mile weekend that included a SaddleSore 1000, which was mostly Interstate (so we finally got some additional use out of the center of the tire). We have recently been experiencing LESS mileage during winter riding with these last tires that we've changed since October. Vicki's last rear tire was to the cords in under 1700 miles, but that's because we figure with warmer weather, she would have ridden an additional 200-500 miles while leaned over further.

For cheap front tires, Cycle Gear still has some old D220 tires with the front being around $60, but you can only order them online.

http://www.cyclegear.com/spgm.cfm?L1=&L2=&L3=&L4=&item=CGC_CG-0702_G


Back on topic - Anyway, regardless who gets what for mileage from a tire and getting back on topic of balancing: I have not seen any significant difference in tire wear or mileage (with the low mileage tires and my riding conditions) whether the tires are balanced or not. I simply have not seen any difference in wear characteristics to be able to jump up and down or rant and rave about how beneficial balancing is when it comes to tire wear....for me. If I saw a definite and proveable improvement with balancing, I'd preach balancing, but I have not witnessed any significant difference. We have noticed a huge difference in Vicki's R1 between convensional weights and Dynabeads, but that is a different story. I'm sure I probably would notice an improvement if I was getting 5000+ per tire where weather probably would not be much of an influence, but.......I can honestly say that, without any doubt in my mind, Caesar's Head (Hwy 276), most of Hwy 215, and Hwy 348 in northern Georgia are the least forgiving of roads in the area. They are coarse and can result in significantly less mileage on a tire if you opt to make many runs up and down them.

Suzuki Vicki
02-05-2009, 10:45 AM
See, Ya'll are worrying waaayyyy too much about this wheel balancing stuff.
What you do is just agree to marry your wheel balancer(wheel buyer/ mechanic/ bike purchaser....etc.) Then have the cutest kid in the world to really hook him in. And voilą! No need to even worry about balancing those silly 'ole wheels!:boast:
(Seriously,use DYNA BEADS! Sorry, I just can't say that enough! Those things are GREAT!)
Of course, he may leave you to deal with the BRP park rangers.:rtfm:
And then there is putting up with all of his BS.:hsfu:
Wow, maybe I need to start balancing my own wheels!:bricks:

Desmo Demon
02-05-2009, 11:16 AM
And then there is putting up with all of his BS.:hsfu:


Sounds like your mechanic is some sort of poor b*stard.....I feel sorry for him.

STRETCH
02-05-2009, 04:39 PM
For cheap front tires, Cycle Gear still has some old D220 tires with the front being around $60, but you can only order them online..[/QUOTE]


THANKS FOR the suggestion but 220s scare the piss out of me. i dont think i've ever used a sliperier (more slipery?) tire.

have you or vicki ever tried the pilot road II tire? I keep hearing good things about them but I'd like to hear something from someone who reealy pushes a tire before I shell out that kind of coin.

STRETCH
02-05-2009, 05:02 PM
[QUOTE=Desmo Demon]during the summer we try to pull 300-400 mile days. We've ridden about 2000 miles (4000 combined) since Christmas. With my commuting, I've averaged around 20k a year for the last 4-5 years. In 2007, we had a combined mileage of 42k miles. The bikes usually stay in the mountains 95%+ of the time. QUOTE]

That's how I like to spend my summer weekends. I'd like to ride with Y'all some day this summer. I don't think I'm quite at your skill level but I wont slow you down too much

Desmo Demon
02-05-2009, 05:31 PM
THANKS FOR the suggestion but 220s scare the piss out of me. i dont think i've ever used a sliperier (more slipery?) tire.
Vicki's GSXR had them on the bike when she first started riding, again. The front tire cupped very badly, and she did have a few issues with the rear tire hopping, but that was usually when downshifting and she was still learning how to get used to her electric shifter......If you want slippery, the old Bridgestone BT-020 tires I had on my ST2 last fall slid pretty easy. I just had to make sure to let them warm up before romping on the bike.

have you or vicki ever tried the pilot road II tire?
We have a set of the Road II tires on Vicki's Monster. That bike is ridden a bit easier and has less...much less....power than the GSXR and R1, but she really likes the tires. We haev a set of the Pilot Roads on her ST2, and since it doesn't have a shifter on it, yet, I've been the one to ride that bike. The Roads haven't given me any issues, but I ride that bike a little easier than I do my ST2. I have dragged a knee a few times with it on 178, though.

So far, the Road II tires have about 2500 miles on them and still looking pretty good. The Roads have about 1600 miles on them and holding in really well, also. If they weren't so damn expensive, I'd probably buy some Michelins. I do have some friends who switched from the Diablos to the Michilin products because they were getting 50% more mileage from the Michelins, but.......when I was getting sets of Diablos for $150, even at half the mileage of the Michelins, I was still coming out ahead. I'm anxious to see what the total mileage will wind up on these Michelins. I know the Michelin Pilot Sports didn't get any more mileage than anything else we've run.


I'd like to ride with Y'all some day this summer.
You're always welcome. We have a 300-350 mile loop going through Hot Springs and into Erwin, TN and back and another 300-350 mile loop to northern Georgia and back. We usually leave around 10am for these rides and stay out anywhere between 6 and midnight.....depending on how much we tend to stray off the route and go exploring.

STRETCH
02-05-2009, 10:44 PM
sounds like a pretty good ride. when the weather warms up and I put some decent rubber on the bike (probably April-ish) I'll take you up on that.

STRETCH
02-09-2009, 05:26 PM
prototype is complete
acurate to within 1/16oz
:bb: